Outlandish Grace! Blogs - Infinite God. Infinite Grace.

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Posted by: Steve Johnson	Friday, August 18, 2006
God is infinite; there are no limits to His being. All of God’s attributes are infinite; there are no limits to His love, mercy, forgiveness, goodness, kindness, grace, etc. We are finite, limited creatures. In addition, even at our best, we are sinful—corrupted, twisted, prejudiced, distorted, blind. Point: God's infinite love, grace, mercy forgiveness, etc. are infinitely greater than our finite capacity to ever fully understand or experience them. We understand and experience much of God’s love, grace, etc., and in sincere gratitude, we thank Him for it. But, no matter of how much our finite experience grasps, it is only minuscule compared to the infinite love, grace, goodness, kindness, mercy, etc. God has for us. Know this: His infinite love and grace are greater than your finite ability to ever grasp, experience, or imagine; and it is all for you. All of His infinite love is for you. All of His infinite mercy is for you. All of His infinite forgiveness is for you. All of His infinite grace is for you. What do you need from God today? His love, mercy, forgiveness, kindness, grace, etc.? Like a soda straw trying to channel an ocean, they are coming to you in spate—greater than your finite ability to contain them, greater than your limited capacity even to imagine them. “Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor? Or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to him again? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen. (Romans 11:33-36) Your thoughts?

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Re: Infinite God. Infinite Grace.

By Tim on Wednesday, August 23, 2006

Steve, thank you for your commitment to help people know and experience the infinite grace of God!

I'd like to wrestle a bit with your statement, "We are finite, limited creatures. In addition, even at our best, we are sinful, corrupted, twisted, prejudiced, distorted and blind." Are you of the opinion that always describes us?

Would you agree that although these bodies of ours are finite, limited and corrupted, that, as a result of God's grace, the truest part of ourselves, our spirit is infinite/eternal, and that those words no longer describe that truest part? I would submit that, yes, our flesh (old self) is sinful, corrupted, etc. at its best, but that because of the finished work of Christ, the truest part of me is now redeemed, holy, incorruptible...very good.

The reason I make this distinction is that I've found in order for me to live in the truth and experience the full extent of God's grace, I have to walk in my new identity. When my behavior demonstrates that my mind has not yet embraced everything that is true about me, and the enemy comes with his stamp of shame ("You're nothing but a ____...), I'm back in the game as a kingdom-building, re-presentation of Christ as soon as I tell him, "You had me for that (amount of time in sin), but that's not who I am!"

I just would like to hear what you think about the status of our hearts after Holy Spirit makes it His dwelling place. My feeling is that much damage has been done by the teaching/belief, "I'm just a sinner saved by grace." We are sinners saved only by grace, but that's not all we are. We are image bearers of God being restored to put flesh on the infinite love, grace, goodness, kindness, and mercy of God.

Are we on the same page that way? Thanks for the opportunity to sharpen one another!

Re: Infinite God. Infinite Grace.

By stevermi on Wednesday, August 23, 2006

Thanks, Tim, for your thoughtful comments.
Yes, Tim, the way I understand it, I do believe that these terms describe the believer Two reasons: it is my experience and the prism through which I read Scripture.
From a combination of these two let me explain why I see it this way.
I believe that the redeemed have at the same time wonderful dignity and terrible depravity. I see this dichotomy throughout the Bible but especially in the ongoing struggle Paul speaks of in Galatians 5:17ff and in greater detail in Romans 7:15ff.
While I do believe that we are spirit, soul, and body, I don’t see a separation of these in the New Testament. There is just one me, not the truest part of me, the spiritual part and then some other me; I am just a whole me, the good and the bad mixed in one person.
In my personal experience I have found that the greatest motivator to righteous living is not an identity of as an image bearer of Christ (mind over matter or in this case spirit over matter, which honestly didn’t work for me), but rather a keen sense of God’s amazing grace. Knowing that God loves me unconditionally, that He has already forgiven me of all my sins, and that He accepts me just as I am wherever that is, even in my sin (my definition of “grace”) creates such gratitude and adoration to so magnificent a God of limitless grace that it makes me want to fall down before Him in adoration and then rise to serve Him with joy and obey Him with delight.
Paul’s answer to the struggle of Romans 7: 24 “Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?” and the answer in verse 25 is simply, “Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
I have come to love the words of the hymn, “O to grace how great a debtor/Daily I’m constrained to be!/Let Thy goodness, like a fetter,/Bind my wandering heart to Thee:/Prone to wander, Lord, I feel it, Prone to leave the God I love;/Here’s my heart, O take and seal it,/Seal it for Thy courts above.”
Because I am so prone to wander, and do wander, I have to remember every day, “O to grace how great a debtor daily I’m constrained to be.” When I do wander it is because I have forgotten His grace.
I believe that a conscious awareness of God’s infinite grace, far from enticing us to sin, brings a response of worship and a life of obedience, and service.
Your thoughts?

Re: Infinite God. Infinite Grace.

By Tim on Wednesday, August 23, 2006

I'm totally with you on what motivates our worship and obedience. And its no struggle to relate to Paul's confession in Romans. By the way, I am in no way trying to distance myself from my responsibility when I say that, as I see it, Paul uses verbage that communicates, "It's not me, it's the sin!" (my paraphrase of Romans 7:17 and 20).

I don't differ on what motivates, but for me motivation didn't consistently lead to success (holiness, walking in freedom). That only came when I, because of being motivated by God's love and grace, said, "Ok, God. I'm done. I draw the line right here. No more! But I know unless you, Jesus (my new identity as one whose life is hidden in Christ), do it, I, left to myself (old, false self) will cross that line every time." I guess that makes me a proponent of Spirit over matter. It was a prayer of surrender and utter dependence. Jesus is what is true about me, but on any given day and in any given moment, I must choose which identity to walk in: the true one that will never change, or the false one that, unless I crucify it daily, will have its own resurrection.

Here's how I read Gal. 2:20: "I (old, false identity the enemy wants me to believe I still am) have been crucified with Christ, and I no longer live (he's dead!), but Christ (my new, true identity) lives in me."

I like to think of grace as "God did it!" And when I move away from thinking that I can be obedient out of gratitude (which I tried for a long time unsuccessfully), and communicate my dependence on the only one who is and can be holy, it's no question who gets the credit and the glory.

It may just sound like different ways of saying the same thing, but it has helped me to see the dichotomy in this way. And it doesn't affect my love for "Come Thy Fount." :-)

Re: Infinite God. Infinite Grace.

By stevermi on Wednesday, August 23, 2006

Two things come to mind:
1. You are surely right in your definiton of grace "God did it." Religion says "Do." The Gospel says "Done." Religion is about all you need to do for God (or the church). The Gospel is about all that God has done for you, no strings attached, just out of love.
2. What you are doing works for you, and it will work for others. It comes to me as I read your comments that the Christian faith is so diverse. Shouldn't we celebrate what works for each other rather than trying to get everyone to "do" it our way.
Thanks for your thoughts.

Re: Infinite God. Infinite Grace.	By Tim on Thursday, August 24, 2006
My thoughts exactly. If we wrestle, may we wrestle with how great God is! Thank you for your ministry, Steve.

The Leaky Collander, the New Thorn in the Flesh

By Blanton on Friday, August 25, 2006

Reminds me of some dialogue in one of Yancey's books. Essentially PY was saying that the sinful self can and will come back w/o daily work and maintenance of the contact with our God.

The scholars upon asking C.S. Lewis about the bounty of Grace got the answer - yes it is all forgiven if you repent, (the Metanoia change) but Grace can be blocked if your hands are full of the bright shiny packages of sin.

Somedays the best I can do is just drop the packages, often just a lot of little ones, and try to open the door of my heart. A change of heart has taken place, am not the same person anymore, but still in need of filling the leaky cistern on a daily basis.

Re: Infinite God. Infinite Grace.

By Mark on Monday, August 28, 2006

I got turned on to your site by a mutual friend. I am humbled by your life story and how God has worked in your life through continuous restoration.

I was studying RC Sproul on the topic of God's infinite mercy. I thought his take was interesting. I believe the story he told was about a paper he wrote in seminary on the infinite mercy of God. (I may have my facts mixed-up and the story was about one of his students and RC was the professor). I believe he received a poor grade because his professor contended that God's mercy is not infinite, but balanced with His judgment. In other words, RC was saying that God will not show us mercy forever if we continue in reprobation. I think that His forgiveness is limited, too. Not in the sense of His true followers but in the sense that it does not cover unbelievers (thereby proving a limit). This means that His forgiveness is balanced with His wrath. I hope I am articulating my point well. Also, I do not want to seem argumentative, I am just seeking to sharpen us so that we can paint as accurate a picture as possible of the awesome and fearful God we serve. Also, I am always interested to learn what others know about Him.

Does any of this make sense?

What are your thoughts?

Re: Infinite God. Infinite Grace.

By Steve Johnson on Tuesday, August 29, 2006

Thanks, Mark, for your kind comments and thoughtful reply.

I do believe that God's grace and all that is included in that marvelous virtue (love, forgiveness, etc.) is infinite. The idea of "limited" grace seems to me to destroy the very idea of God's radical grace.

If grace has limits or conditions, it's not grace.

Further, I think that forgiveness is absolute. By that I mean that God has already forgiven us of every sin we have ever or will ever commit. I believe that was settled at the cross.

However, I do believe that we can refuse God’s grace and forgiveness which leaves us spiritually lost and condemned.

I, too, have been wonderfully blessed by R. C. Sproul. He is a “thoroughly” Reformed Presbyterian who believes in the 5 points of Calvinism, two of which are “Unconditional Election” and “Irresistible Grace.” I do believe in the first: our salvation is ALL of God. I don’t believe in the second: we can resist the effectual call of God to salvation. Otherwise, it seems to me, that we are without any free will, and that makes genuine love impossible. That we may freely choose to love Him is why God created Adam with a choice in Eden.

Finally, when we speak of God and the things of God, the chief necessary qualification is humility. There is far more about our infinite, eternal God that we DON’T know than what we do know. (See the “Grace To You” link and my current Bible study “I Stand In Awe of You.”) So, this is just how I read the Scriptures.

I would love to have your further thoughts.

Re: Infinite God. Infinite Grace.

By Mark on Tuesday, August 29, 2006

Steve - awesome thoughts, I actually had to go and study the 5 points of Calvinism. Thanks for sharpening! Knowledge of God is a fun journey.

Let me also preface this post by saying that I make these points humbly and only as a thirst for knowledge about our Father. I really desire to know more about Him even though I know I will never know all there is to know. The image that comes to mind is trying to fit the contents of the ocean into a thimble (me being the thimble), only the ocean goes on forever :)

All of your points are very good. I hope I am not arguing semantics, but the one point that still seems in question is God's infinite mercy. While I agree His grace is infinite, I haven't heard anything contrary to God's limited mercy. While I believe He is very merciful (beyond what we deserve), I think there are several examples where God stopped showing mercy and began showing judgment and justice, both toward believers and non-believers. In the end, His mercy will end at the day of judgment for those who have not accepted Jesus.

I guess the point I am making is that we too often talk about the fun, positive side of God and neglect to point out the negative or not-so-fun parts of His character. Jesus often pointed out both points in His sermons in the same or very next sentence or phrase (blessed is..., whoa unto...)

What about God's infinite judgment, infinite wrath? When I try to imagine a balanced view of God (which again is impossible to fully grasp - EVER) I often remember that while He loves me like crazy and runs after me like an old man hiking up his robe (a seemingly undignified picture painted by the prodigal son story) I believe there is also a side to God that should absolutely cause fear and trembling in every atom of our being.

I read your article and really enjoyed it. I agree we will never grasp a superstring of knowledge compared to the universe which is God. However, I also believe that if we love Him, we will continue to hunger for and seek to gain us much knowledge as we can of Him who is a mystery.

Please feel free to turn my comments into swiss cheese - I love this dialog! I don't pretend to know - I strive to seek.

:)

Re: Infinite God. Infinite Grace.

By Steve Johnson on Tuesday, August 29, 2006

Again, Mark, thanks for your thoughts.

Yes, I think that His mercies, too, are infinite.

That doesn’t mean that everyone will experience mercy any more than everyone will experience redemption.

I think that the New Testament teaches that faith is critical in all of our relationship with God. “Without faith it is impossible to please Him” (Heb. 11:6). “Whatsoever is not of faith is sin” (Romans 14:23). The disciples asked Jesus what they should do to do the works of God. Jesus answered, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:28-29).

Luther reminded the church that it is faith that makes possible all our relationship with the Father. (I have come to define faith as the realization that God truly is the God revealed to us in Jesus, a God of astounding grace. It is not something we conger up in our hearts. A subject for another blog.)

Someone refusing to have faith in the God revealed in Christ doesn’t limit God’s mercy. His mercy is still there, still infinite for the taking, or should I say for the believing. But without faith a person remains outside of the stream of God’s available and infinite mercy and thus outside the abundance of salvation.

God’s mercy is no less just because someone doesn’t believe, and mercy remains never ceasing even to the unbeliever. However, to experience mercy, he must believe. Those who do not believe in the God revealed in Jesus (“He has explained Him.” John 1:18) cut themselves off from the only source of infinite mercy and grace there is.

Thanks again, Mark, for your thoughts.

What do you think?

Re: Infinite God. Infinite Grace.	By Mark on Wednesday, August 30, 2006
Steve, I think I understand, now. Thank you for your patience and for taking time to correspond with me. Thank God for sharpening and for continuing to reveal Himself.

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